Curse

leguma · Dec 30, 2006, 09:04 PM // 21:04

There is much debate these days about HA and the number of players that a party should have in it. The common consensus, and the only logic explanation is that 6v6 was decided upon because it suposedly made it more accesible to new players.
While I am not going to argue that it is indeed easier to find 8 players than it is to find 6 players, this "accesibility" is faux and only skin deep. The problem is that HA is difficult for new players, period. It does not matter what the party size is, the knowledge and skills required to succesfully win a match in HA are still lacking in the vast majority of new players.

There are several reasons for this. First and foremost is PvE, where the designers are doing a terribly poor job of creating a "GW" experience and are only entrenchng people into a certain mindset of tank-nuke-heal, with the recent Domain of Anguish being a prime example.
The second reason is previous PvP experience. While TA is undoubtely much more competitive these days, it does not, by any means, prepare you for HA. There are relic runs, there are altar matches, and there is the "Ghostly Hero Morale Boost" factor that these new players have never before been subjected to. Then there is the increase in party numbers (be it 4 to 6 or 4 to 8) which means a drastic rethinknig of builds and metagame. RA is quite self explanatory, the jump from RA to TA is also quite smooth and natural, however HA is a massive jump from all points of view.

Next up is the matter of the metagame. In RA and TA, there is metagame to speak of, but it is nowhere near as pronounced as in HA. One of the main reasons for this is because the objectives are much simpler and as such there are fewer skills that are absolutely needed. However, in HA, there is a very strong metagame and a lot of FOTM. If you look at the average entirely new player team, you will notice a large amount of uncoordonated skills that experienced groups do not normally take into HA, ever. Furthermore, these builds often contain elements of TA builds that simply get carried accross for the pure reason that this is what people know. There is simply no place for skills such as Healing Signet on a HA warior bar, yet in TA they are perfectly normal, as such, it is not surprising that these new teams get rolled over with no effort whatsoever by any experienced team. From this point on, new players can either try and come up with a build of their own, something that is very hard to do given their situation, or they can copy something that they see on observer mode and which works.

Now comes another problem. All the experienced players going into HA will want a build that has a pretty decent chance of holding. After all, what is the point of getting to the hall if only to leave. As such, these builds often rely on the skill of players tho play them to overcome various shotcomings that the build itself has, skills that these new players do not posess. "Holding" is a very terrible beast, that has recently infested the lower levels of the comunity to the point where it became quite possible to see "rank 2 LF hoding team" in Euro En 1. While the HoH is indeed the final objective of HA, learning should be the final objective for new players. Not only have thse new players not been exposed to altar maps before, but the altar map is also a 3way making it an even more difficult obstacle to evercome.

These are just a few of the resons why HA is indeed inaccesble to new players, and it requires a lot of dedication and effort to "break into," and indeed none of them have anything whatsoever to do with the number of people in the party. My point is not that of "zOMFG A.net make HA 8v8 back. 6v6 sux", but rather that in order to acomplish their goal, and to indeed open up HA to new players, there are things that need to happen BEFORE HA, not in it.

Zui · Dec 30, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

"There is simply no place for skills such as Healing Signet on a HA warior bar, yet in TA they are perfectly normal, as such, it is not surprising that these new teams get rolled over with no effort whatsoever by any experienced team."

...You're seriously highlighting your lack of knowlege of the Team Arenas metagame. Healing Signet has never been popular among good teams there. Random Areans sees alot of self-heals, and good Warriors bring Healing Signet there... But that's because it's Random... And Random Areans isn't Team Arenas. You also see Healing Signet in GvG, because without it Warriors can't really operate without a Monk, say defending a gank or ganking.

tomcruisejr · Dec 30, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

when i was rank 0, i had to join full trapper groups just to get fame. and i don't want to think bout those days. i will be glad if other players won't experience same/similar experience.

also, you are forgetting that fact that the survival of HA is dependent on the influx of the new players. you were once a new player and there were great players before you. if you, the good players of now, don't make it easy for the new players to come and break through, who will you play against? who will play HA when you got bored and quit the game?

Quote:

These are just a few of the resons why HA is indeed inaccesble to new players, and it requires a lot of dedication and effort to "break into," and indeed none of them have anything whatsoever to do with the number of people in the party.

lot of dedication on a game? how about real life? school, work, love, sex life?

well, how can a new player experience HA asap, forming a 6 man team or forming an 8 man team? party size makes a hell lots of difference you know coz waiting is a waste of time and time = gold.

but yea, there should be another 6vs6 HA that also gives fame. good for new players and guilds/ groups which only have 6 players online and don't plan to get pugs.

Mental Leteci · Dec 30, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

but yea, there should be another 6vs6 HA that also gives fame. good for new players and guilds/ groups which only have 6 players online and don't plan to get pugs.

The most stupid idea ever. How about we also add fame into team arenas? Wouldn't that make it fair? So we all go to team arenas and farm some fame on noobs? We all know that good players will play 8v8 HA and noobs will stick to 6v6, rank is already crap, do we want to make it worse?

tomcruisejr · Dec 30, 2006, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

The most stupid idea ever. How about we also add fame into team arenas? Wouldn't that make it fair? So we all go to team arenas and farm some fame on noobs? We all know that good players will play 8v8 HA and noobs will stick to 6v6, rank is already crap, do we want to make it worse?

6vs6 Heroes Ascent and 8vs8 Heroes Ascent. both are Heroes Ascent so why would 6vs6 prevent people from getting fame?

if Team Arenas become 4vs4 Heroes Ascent, sure add fame to team arenas too.

Mental Leteci · Dec 30, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Oh God. You really don't get it do you? Let's put it this way, imagine that 80% of people who play HA are those who play 8v8 and that 50% of them are good and the rest plays 6v6 and they're avarage or new. So you, a decent player, go to 6v6 HA and wipe off some noobs and farm fame on them. Awesome idea IMHO. It would just make things even more stupid and rank would have no meaning at all. Imagine that they do put rank to teams arenas, like you agreed on it, don't you think that everyone would just go to 4v4 "HA" and get rank 12,13 or even 14? I just hope it's your boredom again that makes you write these ideas.

leguma · Dec 30, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

when i was rank 0, i had to join full trapper groups just to get fame. and i don't want to think bout those days. i will be glad if other players won't experience same/similar experience.

also, you are forgetting that fact that the survival of HA is dependent on the influx of the new players. you were once a new player and there were great players before you. if you, the good players of now, don't make it easy for the new players to come and break through, who will you play against? who will play HA when you got bored and quit the game?

lot of dedication on a game? how about real life? school, work, love, sex life?

well, how can a new player experience HA asap, forming a 6 man team or forming an 8 man team? party size makes a hell lots of difference you know coz waiting is a waste of time and time = gold.

but yea, there should be another 6vs6 HA that also gives fame. good for new players and guilds/ groups which only have 6 players online and don't plan to get pugs.

I know exactly what you are saying, when I was uder rank 3, because back then there were no titles so you were either 3 or nothing, there were often simply not enough people in the district to make a 8 man team. I remember the constant raging based on morale from the unworthy and the constant raging if you happened to loose a game, and the fact that nobody really wanted unranked mesmers and it was the only thing I really know how to play and had unlocked.

I am not forgetting that the health of the game depends on a steady flow of players. Nor am I argueing that is is not significantly easier to get 6 people than it is to get 8. But at the end of the day it does not matter if the party size is 4 or 6 or 8, nothing before HA prepares you in any way for many of the things you have to face in HA. Much like in the old days, people who reached LA and entered the RA would get splatted so bad because they were low level, non max armor and had no elites, HA is difficult to break in when you have no experience.

Yes, ideally, HA should have another similar PvP type before it, but there are
many ties to fame and favor that cannot reaally be duplicated or severed because of the devs and the comunity.

As for the TA-Heal Sig issue, be it Healing Signet or Mending Touch or whatever other heal/conditio removal/hex removal, HA war usually do not carry such skills.

tomcruisejr · Dec 30, 2006, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

Oh God. You really don't get it do you? Let's put it this way, imagine that 80% of people who play HA are those who play 8v8 and that 50% of them are good and the rest plays 6v6 and they're avarage or new. So you, a decent player, go to 6v6 HA and wipe off some noobs and farm fame on them. Awesome idea IMHO. It would just make things even more stupid and rank would have no meaning at all. Imagine that they do put rank to teams arenas, like you agreed on it, don't you think that everyone would just go to 4v4 "HA" and get rank 12,13 or even 14? I just hope it's your boredom again that makes you write these ideas.

well, i'm not finished yet. the 6vs6 HA will have a rank 6 cap limit so rank 11 and rank 12 players will just be playing FoTMs in 8vs8 HA.

6vs6 HA that allows new/intermediate players to experience HA and get to rank 6 before they are required to play 8vs8 HA, sounds good aight? and say if they want to just play 6vs6. they can stilll do it but they wont be able to get fame.

Mental Leteci · Dec 30, 2006, 10:26 PM // 22:26

That's a different story now and idea has more sense, but the problem is, it's a too big step for ANet. If it takes them so long to remove heroes from HA what do you think how long would it take them to implement this idea? ¬.¬

tomcruisejr · Dec 30, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mental Leteci

That's a different story now and idea has more sense, but the problem is, it's a too big step for ANet. If it takes them so long to remove heroes from HA what do you think how long would it take them to implement this idea? ¬.¬

ASAP if I own A.Net. lols.

Venus was her name · Dec 30, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

i prefer 8v8 becuase the teams have more place for builds with a specialised role, more classes and setups can be fitted in.

I started out in GW and HA'ed for 3 days solid and got rank 3 fairly easily, using various builds (ok SOME of it was iway).

i got my fancy deer thing and decided to go off and collect 15k armours on each class. Becuase those were sexier than having a wolf emote.

i do visit HA from time to time and have had a few HoH wins but i don't seriously play it. Lost most of my contacts who play HA so probally won't get back into it anytime soon. UNLESS it goes back to 8v8.

leguma · Dec 30, 2006, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

well, i'm not finished yet. the 6vs6 HA will have a rank 6 cap limit so rank 11 and rank 12 players will just be playing FoTMs in 8vs8 HA.

6vs6 HA that allows new/intermediate players to experience HA and get to rank 6 before they are required to play 8vs8 HA, sounds good aight? and say if they want to just play 6vs6. they can stilll do it but they wont be able to get fame.

Actually that sounds like a VERY solid idea, the only issue left is that of the favor tie-in and the fact that GW and the way HA works are not really ballanced for 6v6. Other than that, it would allow players to break in easier as the so called "1337" players would be constantly moving out towards 8v8 HA, and those still present would be close enough to their roots to be more tolerant, and they could even let the Heros in to play there... it is their Ascent after all.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 30, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Meh, didn't bother reading all the posts as I'm lazy. 8v8 was more accessible as there was iway, which, like it or not, made it much easier for newbies to learn. Also, HA is not meant to be accessible. It is meant to be a high level PvP arena. Game over.

gasmaskman · Dec 30, 2006, 11:12 PM // 23:12

What if R12 people want to go and farm the items in 6v6?

tacitus · Dec 30, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Having 2 HAs would in theory work well the way you are saying with a 6v6 for people just starting HA and an 8v8 version for those 1337 pros out there.

The main problem is the HA districts are ghost towns of what they used to be, splitting them up into two areas would make it even worse. I know lots of people may come back to HA if/when it reverts back to 8v8 but will it be enough to counter the people splitting into the 6v6 version.

oh and anet did try to put some training in the pve for HA look at the desert missions in Tyria

.

tomcruisejr · Dec 30, 2006, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Meh, didn't bother reading all the posts as I'm lazy. 8v8 was more accessible as there was iway, which, like it or not, made it much easier for newbies to learn. Also, HA is not meant to be accessible. It is meant to be a high level PvP arena. Game over.

rightttt.

these was during the "roaring days"

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s....php?t=3061456
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=122381
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=105996
and more..

Alazare · Dec 30, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

lol, 12 W/R on the same map. gg

tacitus · Dec 30, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Why does every thread have to turn into a "omg Iway is going to get you" thread?

There is more to HA than just Iway, always was and always will be. Granted some times Iway was popular with both new HA players and more experienced but there is no need for this panic of IWAY coming over the hills like some viking horde burning villages throughout the land.

Leguma pulled himself away from the snowball fights to make that post which makes a lot of good points about brining new players into HA and the problems associated with this. Lets keep on this topic.

I think having a smaller version of HA could work and should give fame but only if
1) Every account can get only a certain amount of fame from it and no more, or
2)You can only take part before you reach rank 3, once u reach rank 3 you should have enough basic skills to enter the real HA and take part to good degree.

This would also stop the main version of HA being deserted by people in favor of the lower end version.

However im not sure if this will happen because it would mean anet confirming HA as a high end level form of pvp not just a stepping stone to GvG. (The 6v6 situation leads me to believe its seen as a stepping stone im afraid).

Alleji · Dec 31, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

also, you are forgetting that fact that the survival of HA is dependent on the influx of the new players. you were once a new player and there were great players before you. if you, the good players of now, don't make it easy for the new players to come and break through, who will you play against? who will play HA when you got bored and quit the game?

You know, I was thinking of doing just that... I have a bunch of low-ranked players on my friend list who'd like to play HA, but aren't in a HA guild and aren't masochistic enough to go through pugging.

I'd take them and play with them. In fact, I tried, but 6v6 is just too retarded to try... so gg, HA can keep on dying.

tomcruisejr · Dec 31, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tacitus

Why does every thread have to turn into a "omg Iway is going to get you" thread?.

i was just replying to what i quoted. and it all ends there.